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	<title>Comments on: Thinking Out Loud: Why Not MPLS-in-IP?</title>
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	<link>http://blog.scottlowe.org/2012/06/26/thinking-out-loud-why-not-mpls-in-ip/</link>
	<description>The weblog of an IT pro specializing in virtualization, storage, and servers</description>
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		<title>By: Ivan Pepelnjak</title>
		<link>http://blog.scottlowe.org/2012/06/26/thinking-out-loud-why-not-mpls-in-ip/comment-page-1/#comment-56385</link>
		<dc:creator>Ivan Pepelnjak</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jul 2012 17:46:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.scottlowe.org/?p=2648#comment-56385</guid>
		<description>A second label wouldn&#039;t change a thing (just add a layer of indirection ;). 

MPLS labels are supposed to be locally unique because that makes them simple to assign (no need to coordinate the label values between MPLS switches). Globally unique MPLS labels would just destroy the whole concept.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A second label wouldn&#8217;t change a thing (just add a layer of indirection <img src='http://blog.scottlowe.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> . </p>
<p>MPLS labels are supposed to be locally unique because that makes them simple to assign (no need to coordinate the label values between MPLS switches). Globally unique MPLS labels would just destroy the whole concept.</p>
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		<title>By: Jon Langemak</title>
		<link>http://blog.scottlowe.org/2012/06/26/thinking-out-loud-why-not-mpls-in-ip/comment-page-1/#comment-56377</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon Langemak</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jul 2012 16:40:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.scottlowe.org/?p=2648#comment-56377</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s sort of confusing to think about.  The MPLS labels are locally significant because each router assigns it&#039;s own labels to each prefix.  These labels are then advertised through the MPLS network to all of the other MPLS routers.  That being said, different routers can use the same label for very different prefixes.  In the case of MPLS-VPN there&#039;s a label stack that has a &#039;top label&#039; (for moving the packet across the MPLS cloud) and a &#039;VPN label&#039; that&#039;s used on the PE router to determine which VRF the traffic should end up in.  The end point here being that different PE routers (can) have different VPN labels for the same VRF.  I assume you are looking for some method to have the VPN label be globally unique?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s sort of confusing to think about.  The MPLS labels are locally significant because each router assigns it&#8217;s own labels to each prefix.  These labels are then advertised through the MPLS network to all of the other MPLS routers.  That being said, different routers can use the same label for very different prefixes.  In the case of MPLS-VPN there&#8217;s a label stack that has a &#8216;top label&#8217; (for moving the packet across the MPLS cloud) and a &#8216;VPN label&#8217; that&#8217;s used on the PE router to determine which VRF the traffic should end up in.  The end point here being that different PE routers (can) have different VPN labels for the same VRF.  I assume you are looking for some method to have the VPN label be globally unique?</p>
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		<title>By: slowe</title>
		<link>http://blog.scottlowe.org/2012/06/26/thinking-out-loud-why-not-mpls-in-ip/comment-page-1/#comment-56372</link>
		<dc:creator>slowe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jul 2012 16:11:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.scottlowe.org/?p=2648#comment-56372</guid>
		<description>Ivan, thanks for your post---very informative, as usual! I keep forgetting that MPLS labels only have local significance. Would the use of an MPLS label stack help address that concern? In other words, the outer MPLS label has local significance but the inner MPLS label is more of a VNI? Or does that still go against the local significance of MPLS labels? Clearly I need to continue to expand my knowledge of MPLS...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ivan, thanks for your post&#8212;very informative, as usual! I keep forgetting that MPLS labels only have local significance. Would the use of an MPLS label stack help address that concern? In other words, the outer MPLS label has local significance but the inner MPLS label is more of a VNI? Or does that still go against the local significance of MPLS labels? Clearly I need to continue to expand my knowledge of MPLS&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Ivan Pepelnjak</title>
		<link>http://blog.scottlowe.org/2012/06/26/thinking-out-loud-why-not-mpls-in-ip/comment-page-1/#comment-56322</link>
		<dc:creator>Ivan Pepelnjak</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jul 2012 05:16:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.scottlowe.org/?p=2648#comment-56322</guid>
		<description>Wrote a reply that&#039;s a bit too long for a comment ;)

http://blog.ioshints.info/2012/07/could-mpls-over-ip-replace-vxlan-or.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wrote a reply that&#8217;s a bit too long for a comment <img src='http://blog.scottlowe.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p><a href="http://blog.ioshints.info/2012/07/could-mpls-over-ip-replace-vxlan-or.html" rel="nofollow">http://blog.ioshints.info/2012/07/could-mpls-over-ip-replace-vxlan-or.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Stefan</title>
		<link>http://blog.scottlowe.org/2012/06/26/thinking-out-loud-why-not-mpls-in-ip/comment-page-1/#comment-56066</link>
		<dc:creator>Stefan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jun 2012 22:58:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.scottlowe.org/?p=2648#comment-56066</guid>
		<description>I would be interested to know if this is possible too.

Maybe a cheeky email to the authors of the RFC could stir an answer?

Particularly I like the idea of being able to have a stretched network without the need for full MPLS. Although I thought MPLS was purely L3 so I&#039;m not sure how it how it would benefit L2?

Subscribed for follow up comments :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would be interested to know if this is possible too.</p>
<p>Maybe a cheeky email to the authors of the RFC could stir an answer?</p>
<p>Particularly I like the idea of being able to have a stretched network without the need for full MPLS. Although I thought MPLS was purely L3 so I&#8217;m not sure how it how it would benefit L2?</p>
<p>Subscribed for follow up comments <img src='http://blog.scottlowe.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Jon Langemak</title>
		<link>http://blog.scottlowe.org/2012/06/26/thinking-out-loud-why-not-mpls-in-ip/comment-page-1/#comment-55842</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon Langemak</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jun 2012 00:02:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.scottlowe.org/?p=2648#comment-55842</guid>
		<description>Ah... Ok, so I was missing part of this.  This...

&quot;Further, the MPLS would only run on the hypervisor softswitches, and would not require any MPLS support on the physical hardware in the data center.&quot;

Clarified your point for me.  So I&#039;m not a VMWare guy (yet) but isn&#039;t it true that most hypervisor switches are strictly layer 2?  If that&#039;s the case, Im not sure you can implement what you are referring to.  It seems that you are suggesting that the hypervisor switch become the &#039;PE&#039; in a standard MPLS environment.  Now, I will say at this point that most of my MPLS experience is carrier related so I could be off but bear with me.  At some point in the path, you need to tell the device(s) how to get into a certain VRF right?  This is done in most cases by handing off an interface (or sub-interface) to a customer (a server in your case I believe) and defining something like this on the interface &#039;ip vrf forwarding &#039;.  Those interfaces you define that on, are in my experience layer 3 interfaces.  Which in most cases (as far as I know) you don&#039;t talk layer 3 until you get to a physical switch (from the hypervisor northbound). And when you do, that layer 3 interface is generally shared for many hosts which would sort of defeat the purpose wouldnt it?  You could technically trunk with sub interfaces, but Im not sure what that would buy you.

Layer 2 VPNS in MPLS make sense for the virtual data center, but Im not sure how they could be applied &#039;gracefully&#039; without fully extending MPLS into the DC.

Hope we are on the same page now.  Again, Im no VMWare expert so I could be wrong.  I suppose it depends entirely on what you want to do and what features you want to support.  I think the end point though is that I think the DC switches will need to support MPLS for this to work since VRFs are a layer 3 concept.  

What do you think?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah&#8230; Ok, so I was missing part of this.  This&#8230;</p>
<p>&#8220;Further, the MPLS would only run on the hypervisor softswitches, and would not require any MPLS support on the physical hardware in the data center.&#8221;</p>
<p>Clarified your point for me.  So I&#8217;m not a VMWare guy (yet) but isn&#8217;t it true that most hypervisor switches are strictly layer 2?  If that&#8217;s the case, Im not sure you can implement what you are referring to.  It seems that you are suggesting that the hypervisor switch become the &#8216;PE&#8217; in a standard MPLS environment.  Now, I will say at this point that most of my MPLS experience is carrier related so I could be off but bear with me.  At some point in the path, you need to tell the device(s) how to get into a certain VRF right?  This is done in most cases by handing off an interface (or sub-interface) to a customer (a server in your case I believe) and defining something like this on the interface &#8216;ip vrf forwarding &#8216;.  Those interfaces you define that on, are in my experience layer 3 interfaces.  Which in most cases (as far as I know) you don&#8217;t talk layer 3 until you get to a physical switch (from the hypervisor northbound). And when you do, that layer 3 interface is generally shared for many hosts which would sort of defeat the purpose wouldnt it?  You could technically trunk with sub interfaces, but Im not sure what that would buy you.</p>
<p>Layer 2 VPNS in MPLS make sense for the virtual data center, but Im not sure how they could be applied &#8216;gracefully&#8217; without fully extending MPLS into the DC.</p>
<p>Hope we are on the same page now.  Again, Im no VMWare expert so I could be wrong.  I suppose it depends entirely on what you want to do and what features you want to support.  I think the end point though is that I think the DC switches will need to support MPLS for this to work since VRFs are a layer 3 concept.  </p>
<p>What do you think?</p>
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		<title>By: slowe</title>
		<link>http://blog.scottlowe.org/2012/06/26/thinking-out-loud-why-not-mpls-in-ip/comment-page-1/#comment-55815</link>
		<dc:creator>slowe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jun 2012 20:19:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.scottlowe.org/?p=2648#comment-55815</guid>
		<description>JC, the thing about &quot;MPLS is too complicated&quot; is that in this implementation, I think some of the complexities of MPLS could be hidden. Further, the MPLS would only run on the hypervisor softswitches, and would not require any MPLS support on the physical hardware in the data center. (If such support were present though, it would be great to be able to leverage it.)

Richard, I guess my viewpoint is that MPLS is a proven, understood technology. Rather than re-inventing something new, why not re-use something that already exists?

Jon, the presence of a label stack does not, in my humble opinion, render the solution redundant. Based on my understanding, we could use MPLS VPNs to provide either Layer 2 *or* Layer 3 service inside the VPNs, and by encapsulating MPLS in IP we eliminate the need for data center operators to rip/replace/upgrade all their equipment to support MPLS. Of course, as I mentioned, I&#039;m not a MPLS/networking expert, so perhaps there&#039;s a key consideration that I&#039;m overlooking.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JC, the thing about &#8220;MPLS is too complicated&#8221; is that in this implementation, I think some of the complexities of MPLS could be hidden. Further, the MPLS would only run on the hypervisor softswitches, and would not require any MPLS support on the physical hardware in the data center. (If such support were present though, it would be great to be able to leverage it.)</p>
<p>Richard, I guess my viewpoint is that MPLS is a proven, understood technology. Rather than re-inventing something new, why not re-use something that already exists?</p>
<p>Jon, the presence of a label stack does not, in my humble opinion, render the solution redundant. Based on my understanding, we could use MPLS VPNs to provide either Layer 2 *or* Layer 3 service inside the VPNs, and by encapsulating MPLS in IP we eliminate the need for data center operators to rip/replace/upgrade all their equipment to support MPLS. Of course, as I mentioned, I&#8217;m not a MPLS/networking expert, so perhaps there&#8217;s a key consideration that I&#8217;m overlooking.</p>
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		<title>By: Jon Langemak</title>
		<link>http://blog.scottlowe.org/2012/06/26/thinking-out-loud-why-not-mpls-in-ip/comment-page-1/#comment-55803</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon Langemak</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jun 2012 19:07:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.scottlowe.org/?p=2648#comment-55803</guid>
		<description>From my point of view... Encapsulating MPLS inside IP is rather redundant.   If you are talking about using MPLS for separation, I assume you are talking about MPLS VPNs.  And if you are talking about MPLS VPN’s you are talking about a tunneling protocol in itself.  That is, you have two labels. A MPLS label and a VPN label (two instances of the same layer are considered a tunnel in my mind (the packet pushers lads seem to agree)).  So really, you are tunneling inside another tunnel.  Seems to me that you could just tunnel once (layer 3 overlay for separation) and call it a day… Or am I misunderstanding what you are trying to accomplish?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From my point of view&#8230; Encapsulating MPLS inside IP is rather redundant.   If you are talking about using MPLS for separation, I assume you are talking about MPLS VPNs.  And if you are talking about MPLS VPN’s you are talking about a tunneling protocol in itself.  That is, you have two labels. A MPLS label and a VPN label (two instances of the same layer are considered a tunnel in my mind (the packet pushers lads seem to agree)).  So really, you are tunneling inside another tunnel.  Seems to me that you could just tunnel once (layer 3 overlay for separation) and call it a day… Or am I misunderstanding what you are trying to accomplish?</p>
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		<title>By: Richard</title>
		<link>http://blog.scottlowe.org/2012/06/26/thinking-out-loud-why-not-mpls-in-ip/comment-page-1/#comment-55800</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jun 2012 18:05:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.scottlowe.org/?p=2648#comment-55800</guid>
		<description>What is benefit of MPLS comparing to VXLAN, NVGRE, or STT?
Are your proposing L2 over MPLS over IP?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What is benefit of MPLS comparing to VXLAN, NVGRE, or STT?<br />
Are your proposing L2 over MPLS over IP?</p>
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		<title>By: JC</title>
		<link>http://blog.scottlowe.org/2012/06/26/thinking-out-loud-why-not-mpls-in-ip/comment-page-1/#comment-55797</link>
		<dc:creator>JC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jun 2012 17:33:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.scottlowe.org/?p=2648#comment-55797</guid>
		<description>It&#039;d be holy grail if hypervisor switch supports MPLS natively.  However responds from vendor is the usual &quot;MPLS is too complicated&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;d be holy grail if hypervisor switch supports MPLS natively.  However responds from vendor is the usual &#8220;MPLS is too complicated&#8221;.</p>
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