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	<title>Comments on: You&#8217;ve Got to be Kidding Me</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blog.scottlowe.org/2008/12/15/youve-got-to-be-kidding-me/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blog.scottlowe.org/2008/12/15/youve-got-to-be-kidding-me/</link>
	<description>The weblog of an IT pro specializing in virtualization, storage, and servers</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 08 Feb 2012 17:13:47 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Virtual RJ</title>
		<link>http://blog.scottlowe.org/2008/12/15/youve-got-to-be-kidding-me/comment-page-1/#comment-43152</link>
		<dc:creator>Virtual RJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 2009 02:51:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.scottlowe.org/2008/12/15/youve-got-to-be-kidding-me/#comment-43152</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Hypervisor war in virtual&#160;land...&lt;/strong&gt;

Not so long ago (14th of December) Mohammed Fawzi posted a blogpost called Hyper-V vs VMWare. In this post he wanted to put together a comparison of Microsoft&#8217;s Hyper-V and VMWare&#8217;s ESX (Enterprise). Although I don&#8217;t think he acco...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Hypervisor war in virtual&nbsp;land&#8230;</strong></p>
<p>Not so long ago (14th of December) Mohammed Fawzi posted a blogpost called Hyper-V vs VMWare. In this post he wanted to put together a comparison of Microsoft&#8217;s Hyper-V and VMWare&#8217;s ESX (Enterprise). Although I don&#8217;t think he acco&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Nate</title>
		<link>http://blog.scottlowe.org/2008/12/15/youve-got-to-be-kidding-me/comment-page-1/#comment-43069</link>
		<dc:creator>Nate</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Dec 2008 17:22:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.scottlowe.org/2008/12/15/youve-got-to-be-kidding-me/#comment-43069</guid>
		<description>Much agreed on the TCO avenue. There really is a grander picture of cost including not only the software but hardware, power, cooling, man hours etc. I was just clarifying the point. Yes both freebies as I know it are limited compared to their &#039;pay for&#039; bretheren, nd I don&#039;t believe either is actually marketed as being for prodction use. At least not for enterprise production use.

I also agree there are different strokes for different folks. Personally I work on Microsoft focused technologies (AD, Exchange, SQL), so I have a leaning towards Microsoft products. A lot of that has to do with what I like to call &#039;play nice&#039; features such as VSS integration. Familiarity with product style and flow as well as shared scripting systems helps too. For other individuals other technologies are going to make much more sense. I can&#039;t imagine a Linux/Unix heavy group deciding to roll with Hyper-V. Now in the storage market I am an iSCSI religious zealot, but that&#039;s another topic :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Much agreed on the TCO avenue. There really is a grander picture of cost including not only the software but hardware, power, cooling, man hours etc. I was just clarifying the point. Yes both freebies as I know it are limited compared to their &#8216;pay for&#8217; bretheren, nd I don&#8217;t believe either is actually marketed as being for prodction use. At least not for enterprise production use.</p>
<p>I also agree there are different strokes for different folks. Personally I work on Microsoft focused technologies (AD, Exchange, SQL), so I have a leaning towards Microsoft products. A lot of that has to do with what I like to call &#8216;play nice&#8217; features such as VSS integration. Familiarity with product style and flow as well as shared scripting systems helps too. For other individuals other technologies are going to make much more sense. I can&#8217;t imagine a Linux/Unix heavy group deciding to roll with Hyper-V. Now in the storage market I am an iSCSI religious zealot, but that&#8217;s another topic <img src='http://blog.scottlowe.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: slowe</title>
		<link>http://blog.scottlowe.org/2008/12/15/youve-got-to-be-kidding-me/comment-page-1/#comment-42861</link>
		<dc:creator>slowe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Dec 2008 18:36:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.scottlowe.org/2008/12/15/youve-got-to-be-kidding-me/#comment-42861</guid>
		<description>Nate, as you and others have pointed out, it is correct that both Microsoft and VMware offer a truly free option for virtualization--Hyper-V Server 2008 and ESXi, respectively. Both options have limitations, if I am not mistaken, compared to their &quot;for-pay&quot; brethren.

Of course, acquisition cost is only a component of total cost of ownership (TCO), which is really how organizations should go about evaluating virtualization solutions. For some organizations, Hyper-V may make a lot of sense--that&#039;s fine. For other organizations, VMware ESX will make more sense--that&#039;s fine, too. Only those getting embroiled in a &quot;religious debate&quot; insist that there&#039;s only room for one or the other.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nate, as you and others have pointed out, it is correct that both Microsoft and VMware offer a truly free option for virtualization&#8211;Hyper-V Server 2008 and ESXi, respectively. Both options have limitations, if I am not mistaken, compared to their &#8220;for-pay&#8221; brethren.</p>
<p>Of course, acquisition cost is only a component of total cost of ownership (TCO), which is really how organizations should go about evaluating virtualization solutions. For some organizations, Hyper-V may make a lot of sense&#8211;that&#8217;s fine. For other organizations, VMware ESX will make more sense&#8211;that&#8217;s fine, too. Only those getting embroiled in a &#8220;religious debate&#8221; insist that there&#8217;s only room for one or the other.</p>
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		<title>By: Nate</title>
		<link>http://blog.scottlowe.org/2008/12/15/youve-got-to-be-kidding-me/comment-page-1/#comment-42859</link>
		<dc:creator>Nate</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Dec 2008 18:20:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.scottlowe.org/2008/12/15/youve-got-to-be-kidding-me/#comment-42859</guid>
		<description>Scott, a key point of yours I&#039;d correct is the free vs. no additional charge. Yes there is a no additional charge flavor of Hyper-v with any Windows 2k8, but there is also Hyper-v Server which is a free special purposed server, not a tag onto an existing windows server. It is a specialized OS that is just for doing hyper-v. Comparible to ESXi.

Even the no additional charge bit is important if you are a Microsoft shop. So you are going to run a bunch of VMs all windows. Well, you are going to buy Datacenter edition so you can run unlimited VMs on your host. You are gong to do that whether you run Hyper-V or ESX. Now if you run Hyper-V you are done spending. If you go ESX you are buying another piece.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Scott, a key point of yours I&#8217;d correct is the free vs. no additional charge. Yes there is a no additional charge flavor of Hyper-v with any Windows 2k8, but there is also Hyper-v Server which is a free special purposed server, not a tag onto an existing windows server. It is a specialized OS that is just for doing hyper-v. Comparible to ESXi.</p>
<p>Even the no additional charge bit is important if you are a Microsoft shop. So you are going to run a bunch of VMs all windows. Well, you are going to buy Datacenter edition so you can run unlimited VMs on your host. You are gong to do that whether you run Hyper-V or ESX. Now if you run Hyper-V you are done spending. If you go ESX you are buying another piece.</p>
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		<title>By: slowe</title>
		<link>http://blog.scottlowe.org/2008/12/15/youve-got-to-be-kidding-me/comment-page-1/#comment-42854</link>
		<dc:creator>slowe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Dec 2008 14:42:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.scottlowe.org/2008/12/15/youve-got-to-be-kidding-me/#comment-42854</guid>
		<description>Prashant,

I agree that feature checks are an important part of any live migration functionality. Given the approach that Microsoft and other vendors have taken with regards to relying upon the hardware extensions to support virtualization--for example, both Hyper-V and Xen REQUIRE AMD-V/Intel VT in order to run virtualized Windows guests--it&#039;s not that far of a stretch to suppose that they will also require hardware extensions in order to support live migration.

As a side note, though, it&#039;s important to point out that EVC--and AMD-V/Intel FlexMigration upon which it is built--only handle the CPUID feature check. Applications that don&#039;t use the CPUID feature check could still cause problems, even with EVC enabled. At least, that&#039;s my understanding; feel free to correct me if I am wrong.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Prashant,</p>
<p>I agree that feature checks are an important part of any live migration functionality. Given the approach that Microsoft and other vendors have taken with regards to relying upon the hardware extensions to support virtualization&#8211;for example, both Hyper-V and Xen REQUIRE AMD-V/Intel VT in order to run virtualized Windows guests&#8211;it&#8217;s not that far of a stretch to suppose that they will also require hardware extensions in order to support live migration.</p>
<p>As a side note, though, it&#8217;s important to point out that EVC&#8211;and AMD-V/Intel FlexMigration upon which it is built&#8211;only handle the CPUID feature check. Applications that don&#8217;t use the CPUID feature check could still cause problems, even with EVC enabled. At least, that&#8217;s my understanding; feel free to correct me if I am wrong.</p>
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		<title>By: Prashant Prahlad</title>
		<link>http://blog.scottlowe.org/2008/12/15/youve-got-to-be-kidding-me/comment-page-1/#comment-42845</link>
		<dc:creator>Prashant Prahlad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Dec 2008 01:25:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.scottlowe.org/2008/12/15/youve-got-to-be-kidding-me/#comment-42845</guid>
		<description>wrt:

Identical servers are not required in order to support VMware HA. They are required for VMotion. I would strongly suspect that Hyper-V will have similar requirements or will require hardware support like AMD-V/Intel FlexMigration when it’s live migration feature arrives in 2010.

EVC makes identical servers for VMotion unnecessary, and VMware clearly states how it works. When &quot;other&quot; virtualization vendors say they support(or will support) live migration, it makes you wonder how reliable it would be. For example, Hyper-V&#039;s quick migration has blatant disregard for VM or application stability. 

Look at:
http://www.vmware.com/technology/whyvmware/resources/cpu-feature-migration-checks.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>wrt:</p>
<p>Identical servers are not required in order to support VMware HA. They are required for VMotion. I would strongly suspect that Hyper-V will have similar requirements or will require hardware support like AMD-V/Intel FlexMigration when it’s live migration feature arrives in 2010.</p>
<p>EVC makes identical servers for VMotion unnecessary, and VMware clearly states how it works. When &#8220;other&#8221; virtualization vendors say they support(or will support) live migration, it makes you wonder how reliable it would be. For example, Hyper-V&#8217;s quick migration has blatant disregard for VM or application stability. </p>
<p>Look at:<br />
<a href="http://www.vmware.com/technology/whyvmware/resources/cpu-feature-migration-checks.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.vmware.com/technology/whyvmware/resources/cpu-feature-migration-checks.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Dustin</title>
		<link>http://blog.scottlowe.org/2008/12/15/youve-got-to-be-kidding-me/comment-page-1/#comment-42831</link>
		<dc:creator>Dustin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Dec 2008 14:12:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.scottlowe.org/2008/12/15/youve-got-to-be-kidding-me/#comment-42831</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve added my own response to Fawzi&#039;s website.  I&#039;m hoping he responds.  Here is my response:

Hmmm....there are many falsehoods posited here.  Many people have already enumerated them.

Unfortunately, this blog&#039;s technical inaccuracies come at the expense of your credibility.  Instead of retaliating at the posters, it might be more credible to refute their points using technical information and fact (notwithstanding ad hominem attacks).

So here&#039;s your chance:
1.  How much experience do you have with installing, configuring and managing ESX.
2.  How much experience do you have using Hyper-V in a production environment.  (Experimental labs used at a company does not count)
3.  Are there any differences in memory management between ESX and Hyper-V?  If so, please explain their function and when they actually get implemented.
4.  Are there any networking differences between Hyper-V and ESX.  If so, please list them and please describe the advantage/disadvantage to both.
5.  Describe how one would backup a Microsoft Hyper-V environment and how one would backup an ESX environment.

Assume the latest versions for both ESX and Hyper-V.

If you can technically answer these questions and sound and rational terms, you&#039;ve got a shot at restoring credibility.  I&#039;m looking forward to your response.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve added my own response to Fawzi&#8217;s website.  I&#8217;m hoping he responds.  Here is my response:</p>
<p>Hmmm&#8230;.there are many falsehoods posited here.  Many people have already enumerated them.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, this blog&#8217;s technical inaccuracies come at the expense of your credibility.  Instead of retaliating at the posters, it might be more credible to refute their points using technical information and fact (notwithstanding ad hominem attacks).</p>
<p>So here&#8217;s your chance:<br />
1.  How much experience do you have with installing, configuring and managing ESX.<br />
2.  How much experience do you have using Hyper-V in a production environment.  (Experimental labs used at a company does not count)<br />
3.  Are there any differences in memory management between ESX and Hyper-V?  If so, please explain their function and when they actually get implemented.<br />
4.  Are there any networking differences between Hyper-V and ESX.  If so, please list them and please describe the advantage/disadvantage to both.<br />
5.  Describe how one would backup a Microsoft Hyper-V environment and how one would backup an ESX environment.</p>
<p>Assume the latest versions for both ESX and Hyper-V.</p>
<p>If you can technically answer these questions and sound and rational terms, you&#8217;ve got a shot at restoring credibility.  I&#8217;m looking forward to your response.</p>
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		<title>By: YC</title>
		<link>http://blog.scottlowe.org/2008/12/15/youve-got-to-be-kidding-me/comment-page-1/#comment-42808</link>
		<dc:creator>YC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Dec 2008 10:36:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.scottlowe.org/2008/12/15/youve-got-to-be-kidding-me/#comment-42808</guid>
		<description>Hi, Scott,

The only thing makes 4500 drivers support in hyper-v is Microsoft is &quot;making hyper-v&quot; as client-side hypervisor as well. In that case, you really need those support! Are they doing this?

Sometime it is hard to argue with people when they are trashing ESX not running on their notebook. The real thing they (and their lab) need is VMware workstation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi, Scott,</p>
<p>The only thing makes 4500 drivers support in hyper-v is Microsoft is &#8220;making hyper-v&#8221; as client-side hypervisor as well. In that case, you really need those support! Are they doing this?</p>
<p>Sometime it is hard to argue with people when they are trashing ESX not running on their notebook. The real thing they (and their lab) need is VMware workstation.</p>
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		<title>By: Hyper-V vs. VMware = Monday Debate &#124; VMware Tips</title>
		<link>http://blog.scottlowe.org/2008/12/15/youve-got-to-be-kidding-me/comment-page-1/#comment-42795</link>
		<dc:creator>Hyper-V vs. VMware = Monday Debate &#124; VMware Tips</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Dec 2008 01:23:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.scottlowe.org/2008/12/15/youve-got-to-be-kidding-me/#comment-42795</guid>
		<description>[...] when this post was published on the Zero&#8217;s &amp; One&#8217;s blog site.  Almost immediately Scott Lowe and Jason Boche posted their rebuttals, along with dozens of other comments on the initial posting [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] when this post was published on the Zero&#8217;s &amp; One&#8217;s blog site.  Almost immediately Scott Lowe and Jason Boche posted their rebuttals, along with dozens of other comments on the initial posting [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Russell</title>
		<link>http://blog.scottlowe.org/2008/12/15/youve-got-to-be-kidding-me/comment-page-1/#comment-42792</link>
		<dc:creator>Russell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Dec 2008 22:23:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.scottlowe.org/2008/12/15/youve-got-to-be-kidding-me/#comment-42792</guid>
		<description>I made it about 3 lines in before I gave up on assuming the guy would know what he was talking about. It&#039;s quite possibly the worst compare/contrast I&#039;ve ever seen between the two products. I&#039;d wager I&#039;ll find a better comparison on microsoft.com than anywhere. 

Surely it is satire? 

Reading through the rest of his blog, he&#039;s basically a microsoft fanboy who doesn&#039;t really understand the core technology (I don&#039;t even think he really understands Hyper-V). It&#039;s like when a child first finds out how something works and he is trying to poorly explain to the rest of the world for a pat on the back.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I made it about 3 lines in before I gave up on assuming the guy would know what he was talking about. It&#8217;s quite possibly the worst compare/contrast I&#8217;ve ever seen between the two products. I&#8217;d wager I&#8217;ll find a better comparison on microsoft.com than anywhere. </p>
<p>Surely it is satire? </p>
<p>Reading through the rest of his blog, he&#8217;s basically a microsoft fanboy who doesn&#8217;t really understand the core technology (I don&#8217;t even think he really understands Hyper-V). It&#8217;s like when a child first finds out how something works and he is trying to poorly explain to the rest of the world for a pat on the back.</p>
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