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	<title>Comments on: Virtualization Short Take #1</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blog.scottlowe.org/2008/02/08/virtualization-short-take-1/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blog.scottlowe.org/2008/02/08/virtualization-short-take-1/</link>
	<description>The weblog of an IT pro specializing in virtualization, storage, and servers</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 28 Aug 2008 18:08:26 +0000</pubDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6</generator>
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		<title>By: Nick Triantos</title>
		<link>http://blog.scottlowe.org/2008/02/08/virtualization-short-take-1/#comment-35887</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick Triantos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Mar 2008 21:57:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.scottlowe.org/2008/02/08/virtualization-short-take-1/#comment-35887</guid>
		<description>The whitepaper published leaves a lot to be desired and has several flaws: 

1) As everybody has already mentioned doing 100% I/O of a workload (reads/writes/random/seq) is not  representative of any real environment

2) Using a single ESX host is not an implementation customers typically deploy. How many customers with a single ESX server do you know?

3) Using RDM only lends itself to speculation as to why VMFS was absent from the tests given that most VMware customers deploy VMFS

If you gonna put out a paper comparing protocols, then it ought to be done correctly and in a manner representative of a typical VMWare customer deployment. Also, since ESX enables scale out clustering, and VMFS is the primary mechanism in doing so, a good test would be to compare the scaling aspect of it and what does performance look like in that scenario.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The whitepaper published leaves a lot to be desired and has several flaws: </p>
<p>1) As everybody has already mentioned doing 100% I/O of a workload (reads/writes/random/seq) is not  representative of any real environment</p>
<p>2) Using a single ESX host is not an implementation customers typically deploy. How many customers with a single ESX server do you know?</p>
<p>3) Using RDM only lends itself to speculation as to why VMFS was absent from the tests given that most VMware customers deploy VMFS</p>
<p>If you gonna put out a paper comparing protocols, then it ought to be done correctly and in a manner representative of a typical VMWare customer deployment. Also, since ESX enables scale out clustering, and VMFS is the primary mechanism in doing so, a good test would be to compare the scaling aspect of it and what does performance look like in that scenario.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert</title>
		<link>http://blog.scottlowe.org/2008/02/08/virtualization-short-take-1/#comment-35362</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Feb 2008 07:55:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.scottlowe.org/2008/02/08/virtualization-short-take-1/#comment-35362</guid>
		<description>Regarding Cloning new virtual machine from a template on NFS:

If you create a virtual machine on NFS it is thin provisioned. If you convert it to a template the template is already thick provisioned and so every new virtual machine you create from this template becomes thick.

It's the normal behavior on NFS storage as far as I've seen it.

Robert</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Regarding Cloning new virtual machine from a template on NFS:</p>
<p>If you create a virtual machine on NFS it is thin provisioned. If you convert it to a template the template is already thick provisioned and so every new virtual machine you create from this template becomes thick.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s the normal behavior on NFS storage as far as I&#8217;ve seen it.</p>
<p>Robert</p>
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		<title>By: Dan</title>
		<link>http://blog.scottlowe.org/2008/02/08/virtualization-short-take-1/#comment-35361</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Feb 2008 06:41:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.scottlowe.org/2008/02/08/virtualization-short-take-1/#comment-35361</guid>
		<description>While I agree with the vmware results that show that NFS is just as good for vmware, I don't agree with their testing methods.   

iometer tests using 100% read and write setting are not a good indicator for vmware performance.  Random IO is the key..  We have NFS storage systems that are very fast at sequential IO and poor random IO and the VM's are very slow.

Also, a 256Mb VM may have been an issue in their numbers...

I believe there is a larger issue going here... I think vmware wants to get out of the filesystem business and NFS systems are their way out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While I agree with the vmware results that show that NFS is just as good for vmware, I don&#8217;t agree with their testing methods.   </p>
<p>iometer tests using 100% read and write setting are not a good indicator for vmware performance.  Random IO is the key..  We have NFS storage systems that are very fast at sequential IO and poor random IO and the VM&#8217;s are very slow.</p>
<p>Also, a 256Mb VM may have been an issue in their numbers&#8230;</p>
<p>I believe there is a larger issue going here&#8230; I think vmware wants to get out of the filesystem business and NFS systems are their way out.</p>
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		<title>By: slowe</title>
		<link>http://blog.scottlowe.org/2008/02/08/virtualization-short-take-1/#comment-35356</link>
		<dc:creator>slowe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Feb 2008 02:12:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.scottlowe.org/2008/02/08/virtualization-short-take-1/#comment-35356</guid>
		<description>Dmitry,

That VDI demo is pretty neat. I'll be glad when the technology to actually do that is available to the public.

As for the VMware whitepaper, I agree that the performance measurements should try to be more applicable to real-world VM activity. That would give us a more realistic comparison of Fibre Channel, iSCSI, and NFS.

Thanks for your feedback!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dmitry,</p>
<p>That VDI demo is pretty neat. I&#8217;ll be glad when the technology to actually do that is available to the public.</p>
<p>As for the VMware whitepaper, I agree that the performance measurements should try to be more applicable to real-world VM activity. That would give us a more realistic comparison of Fibre Channel, iSCSI, and NFS.</p>
<p>Thanks for your feedback!</p>
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		<title>By: Dmitry Sorokin</title>
		<link>http://blog.scottlowe.org/2008/02/08/virtualization-short-take-1/#comment-35355</link>
		<dc:creator>Dmitry Sorokin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Feb 2008 23:44:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.scottlowe.org/2008/02/08/virtualization-short-take-1/#comment-35355</guid>
		<description>Sorry, in my post I've made a typo. It should read - "Regarding VMware storage performace whitepaper".

Dmitry</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, in my post I&#8217;ve made a typo. It should read - &#8220;Regarding VMware storage performace whitepaper&#8221;.</p>
<p>Dmitry</p>
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		<title>By: Dmitry Sorokin</title>
		<link>http://blog.scottlowe.org/2008/02/08/virtualization-short-take-1/#comment-35354</link>
		<dc:creator>Dmitry Sorokin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Feb 2008 23:43:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.scottlowe.org/2008/02/08/virtualization-short-take-1/#comment-35354</guid>
		<description>Regarding NetApp VM provisioning, just watch this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Miv0PiJFzM&#38;eurl=http://blogs.vmware.com/vmtn/2008/02/bring-on-the-vd.html

Regarding NetApp storage performace whitepaper, IMHO it's useless. They compare sequential read and write and measure bandwidth of the data chennel (FC, iSCSI and NFS) and CPU utilization which is NOT the typical VM workload. Realistically, they should measure latency and RANDOM read/write performance of different protocols on different arrays (of the same class). 
Let's say there's IBM FC array, Equallogic iSCSI array and NetApp NFS filer (not that NetApp can't do any other protocols, but IMHO it's the best in doing NAS). They cost around the same, but which one will give better performance/managebility with real world workloads - that's the question. And we all know that bandwidth/throughput it NOT, or NOT always, a deciding factor and how much managebility, reliable backup and quick restore could matter.
From my experience running VM over NFS (on appropriately sized NetApp filer) always been a best choice, specially over 4GB Ethernet trunk or now, when ESX supports 10GB, over 10GB link.

Anyway, that's my 2c

Dmitry</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Regarding NetApp VM provisioning, just watch this video:<br />
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Miv0PiJFzM&amp;eurl=http://blogs.vmware.com/vmtn/2008/02/bring-on-the-vd.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Miv0PiJFzM&amp;eurl=http://blogs.vmware.com/vmtn/2008/02/bring-on-the-vd.html</a></p>
<p>Regarding NetApp storage performace whitepaper, IMHO it&#8217;s useless. They compare sequential read and write and measure bandwidth of the data chennel (FC, iSCSI and NFS) and CPU utilization which is NOT the typical VM workload. Realistically, they should measure latency and RANDOM read/write performance of different protocols on different arrays (of the same class).<br />
Let&#8217;s say there&#8217;s IBM FC array, Equallogic iSCSI array and NetApp NFS filer (not that NetApp can&#8217;t do any other protocols, but IMHO it&#8217;s the best in doing NAS). They cost around the same, but which one will give better performance/managebility with real world workloads - that&#8217;s the question. And we all know that bandwidth/throughput it NOT, or NOT always, a deciding factor and how much managebility, reliable backup and quick restore could matter.<br />
From my experience running VM over NFS (on appropriately sized NetApp filer) always been a best choice, specially over 4GB Ethernet trunk or now, when ESX supports 10GB, over 10GB link.</p>
<p>Anyway, that&#8217;s my 2c</p>
<p>Dmitry</p>
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		<title>By: Andy Leonard</title>
		<link>http://blog.scottlowe.org/2008/02/08/virtualization-short-take-1/#comment-35352</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy Leonard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Feb 2008 21:45:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.scottlowe.org/2008/02/08/virtualization-short-take-1/#comment-35352</guid>
		<description>Well, when I said it was similar, I didn't say it was as advanced or efficient... particularly since we don't have a FlexClone license.  I don't necessarily recommend it beyond our particular situation.

I use the same general method to prepare the host for cloning; then copy the host files using an NFS-attached host.  This is not fast - templates seem to be faster here, unlike with our Linux Kickstarts - but it's worth the cost trade-off for us.  I use a couple shell scripts to rename files and correct paths with the VM's config.

Similar to your method, I use "vmware-cmd -s register" to register the virtual.

The same caveats about SID duplication apply; I use NewSID from Sysinternals/Microsoft to address that.

Andy</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, when I said it was similar, I didn&#8217;t say it was as advanced or efficient&#8230; particularly since we don&#8217;t have a FlexClone license.  I don&#8217;t necessarily recommend it beyond our particular situation.</p>
<p>I use the same general method to prepare the host for cloning; then copy the host files using an NFS-attached host.  This is not fast - templates seem to be faster here, unlike with our Linux Kickstarts - but it&#8217;s worth the cost trade-off for us.  I use a couple shell scripts to rename files and correct paths with the VM&#8217;s config.</p>
<p>Similar to your method, I use &#8220;vmware-cmd -s register&#8221; to register the virtual.</p>
<p>The same caveats about SID duplication apply; I use NewSID from Sysinternals/Microsoft to address that.</p>
<p>Andy</p>
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		<title>By: slowe</title>
		<link>http://blog.scottlowe.org/2008/02/08/virtualization-short-take-1/#comment-35350</link>
		<dc:creator>slowe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Feb 2008 20:51:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.scottlowe.org/2008/02/08/virtualization-short-take-1/#comment-35350</guid>
		<description>Andy, you've piqued my curiosity. Would you care to elaborate on your Windows VM provisioning method?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Andy, you&#8217;ve piqued my curiosity. Would you care to elaborate on your Windows VM provisioning method?</p>
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		<title>By: Andy Leonard</title>
		<link>http://blog.scottlowe.org/2008/02/08/virtualization-short-take-1/#comment-35349</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy Leonard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Feb 2008 20:48:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.scottlowe.org/2008/02/08/virtualization-short-take-1/#comment-35349</guid>
		<description>We've also seen the loss of thin-provisioned disks when cloning VMs from a template via VI on an NFS datastore.  We didn't investigate this extensively, particularly as Linux Kickstart installs are faster than VMware's template cloning method for our installs.  For Windows, we use a method similar to your "How to Provision VMs Using NetApp FlexClones" article, which does preserve the thin-provisioning.

Andy</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We&#8217;ve also seen the loss of thin-provisioned disks when cloning VMs from a template via VI on an NFS datastore.  We didn&#8217;t investigate this extensively, particularly as Linux Kickstart installs are faster than VMware&#8217;s template cloning method for our installs.  For Windows, we use a method similar to your &#8220;How to Provision VMs Using NetApp FlexClones&#8221; article, which does preserve the thin-provisioning.</p>
<p>Andy</p>
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